Handling both technology and telecom as CTO of New York City DOTCordell Schachter has seen it all. In an effort to make travel safer for all NYC travelers, no matter their chosen mode of transportation, Cordell has helped initiate and manage efforts across the transportation board and talks with us about congestion pricing, 5G deployment, connected vehicle pilot projects and other ideas to help move the biggest city in the US.

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Regina: (00:05) From GRIDSMART Technologies, I’m Regina Hopper. Welcome to POLICYSMART.

Regina: (00:18) Well hello everybody and welcome to this edition of POLICYSMART. And we are here at the ITS America, Washington DC show. And I say this on many occasions about how excited I am to have a guest, but this is, this tops it all because this is Cordell Schachter. Cordell is New York City Guru on all things IT, transportation, Internet, data, privacy, you name it. And he really seriously has been my muse for, I don’t know, four or five years now. So welcome, Cordell.

Cordell: (00:54) Well, thank you. And there’s lots of other people in New York City who know IT and transportation. So I appreciate the comp.

Regina: (01:00) Well no, but, but you do. So I want you because I really don’t do well in describing everything that you do, so please tell us what you’re doing in New York City.

Cordell: (01:09) So for New York City’s Department of Transportation, I’m their Chief Technology Officer and CIO. So it encompasses both what people know of the traditional IT role, administrative it where you get in trouble, not necessarily get complimented. It’s like you deliver the email correctly. No one says, great job today, Cordell, right? But if email doesn’t work for five minutes, then you get tons of phone calls. Right? But in exchange for having that responsibility, I also get to work with a great bunch of people throughout the agency who look for us to innovate DOTs and transportation, especially intelligent transportation in New York City, which is both a tremendous challenge but also a tremendously rewarding. And for example, the cities had for the last 10 or 12 years, it’s own private cellular network. And in that network, the most important use has been the networking of all of our traffic signals and now we’re changing that network to a totally different model using a commercial carrier but also upgrading the equipment for more functionality, including Wifi, Bluetooth for better traffic monitoring, um, and also greater cybersecurity, which everybody needs in this day and age, so having that project on our plate, we’re just finishing the contracting for that issued our LOI last week and we’ll be implementing that over the next 14 months. That’s an example of the kinds of things that we get to do.

Regina: (02:51) So you really are at the intersection of telecommunications and transportation and where those things come together. And out of that comes a whole lot of issues of privacy, data, utilization of data, acquisition of data, the entire setup of a new network, um, as things come in the city. So there are so much going on in New York City. So let’s get into it. First, one of the things that you said you really wanted to talk about was what was happening with regard to NACTO, which is the National Association of City Transportation Officials association’s new, sort of, guidelines or rules around data and privacy. And you, you mentioned to me on a New York Times piece this week on privacy. So tell us a little bit about why this is important to you, why this is important to the city of New York.

Cordell: (03:38) So first the NACTO statement called Managing Mobility Data and your listeners, if they Google that, they’ll come up with a white paper of sorts coauthored by NACTO and also a national group of trial lawyers association. Is NLAW or something?

Regina: (03:58) I think it’s the International Municipal Lawyers Association.

Cordell: (04:02) There you go.

Regina: (04:02) Right. So lawyers.

Cordell: (04:04) Yeah. And what’s great about that statement, it’s one of the first things that I’ve seen that balances responsibility between the public and the private sector for the protection of our data, our personal security and says that the transportation sector is going to be a leader in requiring that all of us, public and private sector, get from our customers genuine opt-in when they surrender private information. And that private information is only held as long as it’s actually useful for that service that you opted into. So I’ll give you two examples. One is, you take a um, a for-hire vehicle and you use your phone to order that vehicle and you tell them where you’re starting out and where you’re ending up or left.

Regina: (05:00) Like an Uber or a Lyft. Right?

Cordell: (05:01) Exactly.

Regina: (05:03) Pick me up here. Take me there.

Cordell: (05:03) Exactly. So how long do they need that information? They keep it forever and they may be selling it and not only may be, may they be selling it, you may have given them permission to sell it when you checked off on their terms and conditions. Those things written in tiny print.

Regina: (05:20) And you just said agree because you want to get to the service itself, right?

Cordell: (05:23) Exactly. And those documents really protect them from risk as opposed to granting use security. But now they can do whatever they want. But after you paid for the trip, why do they need to keep that information? And if they’re gonna sell it, and you don’t mind it, shouldn’t you get a cut of that?

Regina: (05:39) Monetarily, you mean?

Cordell: (05:40) Absolutely.

Regina: (05:41) Oh, interesting.

Cordell: (05:42) Or if they’re not, if you don’t want to sell it, then you should just be able to say no and that information should be expunged. So that’s an example of the kinds of things that we’re advocating for.

Regina: (05:51) I don’t say this right, but it’s um, there’s a word in here about how easily personally identifiable that particular piece of data is. So does it say Regina Hopper ordered Uber or Lyft and she wants to go from her home to the Washington Convention Center. That’s personally identifiable?

Cordell: (06:14) Yeah. So, so let’s say they say right now they’re going to expunge Regina Hopper. They’re going to expunge your credit card data once they don’t need it, but they keep the rest of it. But let’s say in the middle of that trip you went to see a doctor.

Regina: (06:27) Oh, mmhmm.

Cordell: (06:28) And there’s only so many people who live where you live who go to that doctor, or let’s say medical arts building. And maybe it’s none of their business what you’re at that doctor for. Or maybe you’re visiting someone and maybe there’s, there’s only so many people that would take that trip after the doctor to visit that person. So all of the sudden in the, let’s just take a guess in the 300 people who live in your neighborhood, they can narrow it down to two or three or one person

Regina: (06:59) Just by assumption.

Cordell: (07:01) Yeah. And one of the things that the NACTO document states very clearly is that location information is personally identifiable information because it’s not that hard to kind of reverse engineer it.

Regina: (07:13) Well, so, so one of the things that I think most of us don’t think about because just like when the cell phones came out, right and you would turn on location services and not think much about it, but people are tracking where you’re going. In this instance where we are now, when we have all sort of shared mobility, whether it be the Ubers or the Lyfts or whatever. We have the scooters. We have what I would call a, when I want to talk to you about it, a pass that allows us to use it in different modes of transportation to charge our – right – our use of that transportation. How does a city like New York City decide it’s going to protect its constituents but yet at the same time promote shared mobility and better mobility for folks?

Cordell: (07:58) So that’s a great question. So the other half besides, um, this genuine opt-in on the private side is we have a responsibility to regulate those companies and have rules that do two things, protect our customers, but also provide for a marketplace, a competitive marketplace. So we’re going to need some of that location-based information to do micro-simulations about how certain intersections or thoroughfares work. But how long do we need that information? And at some point you can take those little bits of information and, starting to get too much in the weeds here, but aggregate them, generalize that information to the point that we really can’t see that Regina went from home to the doctor to visit somebody before she got to ITSA’s annual meeting here. So by doing that, you’re given more protection because the ability reengineer it is lost through some of that aggregation. So the government has a special role of that, setting the rules and enforcing those rules. But those rules, given the way that we live, also need to make sure that companies like Uber, Lyft, Via, and the others, as well as yellow taxis in New York City, have viable ongoing businesses to prove, to provide transportation services to New Yorkers. But for us, there’s also one thing to remember, we’re very dependent on mass transit.

Regina: (09:27) Yes.

Cordell: (09:27) All of the mass transit in New York City was created by private companies. They failed. And the government took it over because there’s enough public benefits generated by mass transit that we said we’re going to subsidize it now. So even though a private company couldn’t make it.

Regina: (09:47) Oh that’s interesting. I didn’t know that about New York.

Cordell: (09:49) So you know, you hear a lot, especially from one party more than the others have government being the problem. Well if it wasn’t for government, there wouldn’t be a lot of services that people depend on. And in New York City, if we’re going to move nine, maybe 10 million people by the end of the century or around, we need not just transit but mass transit.

Regina: (10:12) Right. Right. And you need for that transit to be intermodal to a great degree, right?

Cordell: (10:17) So this whole mobility on demand and ITSA has created this Mobility On Demand Alliance specifically to link together those modes and allow us as travelers to start our trip, perhaps on a cell phone, be able to make choices about fastest but maybe most expensive, least expensive and may be slowest in number of connections. But to know from the very beginning what we have to do. Instead of just hopping in a cab and telling a driver where to go because we’re new to the city.

Regina: (10:52) Right. Right.

Cordell: (10:52) New to that location and be able to pay once. I think you, you mentioned that before, have that fair payment then be divvied up among all the different partners who are providing you that service.

Regina: (11:05) There was a new service, I think that was just launched in New York for, I think I saw it, used at the metro, right, where you use one payment and you can get in and out and up and down. How, how’s that working?

Cordell: (11:14) So it’s called OMNY.

Regina: (11:15) The OMNY, yes.

Cordell: (11:17) And it’s called One Media New York ,and it’s going to allow you to use a card, a credit card with a blink symbol, which kind of looks like a WiFi symbol on its side, which means you can just tap it, which will get you through the turnstile much more quickly. And for buses, uh, permit much, much faster loading, which is a major cause of delay in buses. It’s also let you use your smartphone and even Apple, which in the past did not implement NFC like tap type of technology because of the security issues.

Regina: (11:51) Right. Right.

Cordell: (11:52) They’re actually pushing out a new update to their Apple Pay that won’t require a fingerprint or a password that you can just tap your iPhone and get right on the train.

Regina: (12:05) And this will allow you to use it for, we call it metro here before the subway in New York and for buses?

Cordell: (12:13) And at first it’s just being tested over the next year or so for finite trips. Okay. You can’t use it from a bus to a subway and once you, uh, to make a transfer, and a lot of people, including me, I take a bus to get to the subway to go to work each day. So that won’t work right now. But eventually the system will not only allow you to be intermodal, but will also generate an account so that by your usage they, there can be discounting in order to influence people’s behavior, which is what we do now where we give you a discount if you sign up for say the monthly card or an unlimited ride card during certain periods. And already another jurisdiction other than New York state’s MTA has signed up to use on the, and that’s the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.

Regina: (13:11) That’s great. Now you guys are really kind of breaking new ground in this, right? New York City always breaks new ground, right?

Cordell: (13:16) You have to.

Regina: (13:16) You have to. Well you have to, and you guys are really smart and you help lead, a lot of those smart people to, to get it. But you really are making, um…

Cordell: (13:24) Well on the other hand, Great Britain has had the Oyster Card in London forever.

Cordell: (13:28) But we’re talking about the states now, Cordell. Right? So I mean this is really, this is, it’s an, it’s an advancement thing. I think maybe L.A. is trying it as well, but uh huh. Yeah. So, okay, so speaking of that, New Yorkers are pretty vocal about most things. What are they saying? What do you hear from your constituents on privacy and data and usage? And you know, we talked a little bit about tolling and other things, and then I want to come to congestion pricing because they know that’s, that’s out there for New York as well.

Cordell: (13:56) Well, sadly we’re not hearing enough. And an example is when Toll Tags E-Z pass was first implemented in New York City in the regional area, a lot of people didn’t sign up for it because they wanted to maintain that level of privacy. They didn’t want the government or maybe people at whole reading their bills.

Regina: (14:15) When you told me that, that made me laugh. People didn’t want E-Z pass because they didn’t want people at home to know where they’d been going.

Cordell: (14:21) Well it’s like, you know, what did you learn by watching the movie Heartburn, right? You shouldn’t pay for a hotel room during the day on a credit card.

Regina: (14:29) That’s right. Don’t do this. So, so those were the things you were getting though. People didn’t want their privacy invaded.

Cordell: (14:35) And you would literally, you’d be, I’d be sailing through the E-Z pass lane, and you’d see people queued up at the one or two cash lanes, and it really wasn’t enough to change behavior. But over the last year as the state has implemented open road tolling and gotten rid of toll booths. So everyone’s license plates are being photographed.

Regina: (14:57) And people don’t know that or people just assume it and they just accept it at this point?

Cordell: (15:03) And there’s this idea that because still 9/11 reverberates in some ways that we’re going to have to give up some privacy for additional security. So I think people have just gotten used to having surveillance all over the place. So, but that doesn’t mean that the information has to be at risk. There was just a story on NPR this morning about the difference between having a criminal record sealed and a criminal record expunged. Expunged means they can never use it in the future. Sealed means they use it all the time.

Regina: (15:35) That’s right.

Cordell: (15:36) So, so there’s these distinctions that are very technical that the public doesn’t know about and maybe they have false security. So when you see in your email, if you use Gmail that Google reminds you, you’re taking off tomorrow and say, Oh, what a nice thing. They’re reminding me.

Regina: (15:55) I kind of go what? Why do you know that?

Cordell: (15:56) Because they’re reading their email.

Regina: (15:59) Google is reading your email. It’s not just Google, right? So I mean these service providers this is what they’re doing. Well, so let me just ask this broad question. Is there really privacy anymore?

Cordell: (16:10) There could be. So depending on your ability to resist all these services, you could be more secure in your own person and in your own information. But if you’re using these services without necessarily genuinely opting in for the level of intrusion than there may be levels of privacy that you’ve sacrificed at, you’re not aware of. And I’ll give you a good example of how sometimes the companies put a promise out there and then don’t fulfill it. About a year ago, a researcher noticed that Google’s statement that by shutting off location services, they wouldn’t track you anymore. So people went and did that and then a researcher noticed that, no, they still did track you if you use their apps. So what did they do? Did they change the App to honor their original commitment? No, they changed the terms of service so they’re not promising not to track you anymore. That’s kind of crummy. And Google’s famous bar for behavior built on the Hippocratic oath, do no evil. It’s a pretty low bar and they haven’t even managed to do that. And if it wasn’t for all the mess that Facebook has made of things, we’d be focusing much more on Google. So to your question, a a couple of minutes ago, The New York Times is reporting that the federal legislators are finally taking seriously the need to regulate and create some rules for big tech. Because not only is your privacy at risk, but the reason why we’re here at this conference, right? We’re interested in innovation, in transportation, especially saving more lives. Innovation has been stifled in big tech because the big companies buy up new startups right by their technology, sometimes integrate it, but they don’t have to compete. So if Facebook never bought Instagram, they’d be banging each other over the head.

Regina: (18:18) Most people don’t even realize still.

Cordell: (18:20) That’s the same company.

Regina: (18:21) That that is the same company, and it’s hard to keep up with all of these acquisitions because these little things start and then all of a sudden they’re part of something bigger.

Cordell: (18:28) So there needs to be some new definitions around anti-trust law and, and we really do need innovation in tech again, which sounds like an oxymoron because everyone thinks every time, you know, Amazon comes out with a new service and you can stream faster or Facebook comes up with some other way of connecting you with someone you didn’t know about that that’s the innovation, but it really isn’t. And what we’re looking for really and, and it’s well done. I’ll put a pitch in for a book called Zucked.

Regina: (18:57) Spell.

Cordell: (18:57) Z-U-C-K-E-D. Mark Zuckerberg. To rhyme with another word that doesn’t begin with Z.

Regina: (19:08) Okay. Everybody’s going to remember this one now.

Cordell: (19:11) And it talks about a catastrophe of Facebook and the author is a former venture capitalist, early investor, and personal mentor to Mark Zuckerberg who when he saw what was happening, asked Mark to stop and to change. And Mark didn’t, and Roger McNamee, the author has been, um, lobbying, not officially lobbying, but going to members of Congress, explaining to them the problems with big tech acting the way it has been and is one of the primary, um, muses – I’ll use your word – to, to Congress to what they need to do going forward.

Regina: (19:50) You know, it’s, it’s fascinating because Congress is not known a) for either acting expeditiously.

Cordell: (19:56) Yep.

Regina: (19:56) Nor is it known for people who kind of understand these issues, and not slamming Congress on this is hard to understand these issues, but…

Cordell: (20:04) Well, slam them. So look at some of the, and the YouYube clips are online, of the Facebook hearings.

Regina: (20:10) You’re right. Yeah. Yeah.

Cordell: (20:12) And they were prepared by their staffs, and they still didn’t know some of the basic way that Facebook both operates and violates people’s privacy.

Regina: (20:21) So, so not, this could be a whole other podcast, but just the sheer fact of looking at what the Googles and the Facebooks of the world are doing and what we’ve learned over the last couple of years about interference in elections just by virtue of misconstruing or just, you know, to use the term fake news, making stuff up, right? That, that, that isn’t real. Okay. We’re going to come back to that cause that’s, that’s another big issue. I want to go, I want to talk about congestion pricing because New York City has now joined London, Singapore and one other city in basically charging people to drive into the city. Um, and I know this is a state thing, but it affects people who work in the city. Is this part of trying to manage, um, traffic management? Is this part of trying to manage the way people get around from a safety perspective yet also try to still fund all this new technology?

Cordell: (21:12) We look at the foundations in the causes of some of these uh, conditions now, which one of them is increased congestion. And we know that people worldwide are residing more and more in urban areas and that there’s more population. Our population is growing worldwide and those people too are coming to urban areas. New York City will grow. Um, I believe the estimate is from like 2005 to 2050. We’re going to add a million people. So we,

Regina: (21:46) That’s a lot of people.

Cordell: (21:46) Yeah, and the street grid was laid out at a, for a lower population and at different times has been very crowded depending on the availability of mass transit. And we’re coming to the point where the pedestrians literally spill out into the road.

Regina: (22:06) Oh Gosh. Being in New York, you see it like you can’t make a right-hand turn, but with, because of the pedestrians, right? And the lights changed.

Cordell: (22:12) Right. So without at first preferring one mode or another, you have a very inefficient way of using space with one or two human beings in a vehicle that’s 10 feet long and five feet wide. And then you have a pedestrian. And we take up what a foot square. So we obviously need to reorient, frankly, and recognize the bias towards motorized vehicles, towards human powered transportation, just to fit more people into the city and to allow them to move around. So just like there’s public benefits generated by public transportation, there are negative benefits externalities. I was an economics major, I get to show off once in a while. So these extranalities.

Regina: (23:02) Outside influences, right?

Cordell: (23:04) Well, negative consequences of these vehicles having priority over people and and by, by assigning some of the cost of those negative consequences on to the parties that are creating them, the vehicle drivers, we will hopefully influence behavior and have people take more sustainable modes when they’re either traveling to the city or traveling around the city.

Regina: (23:31) Got It. All right. So there’s, it’s, I’ve seen, it’s quite an increase though, right? Like nine bucks to cross a bridge to maybe 15 bucks to cross the bridge?

Cordell: (23:39) So it’s not there yet. Okay. And part of the plan made famous by a former New York City Department of Transportation official, Sam Schwartz, is a, is a plan that would lower the prices on some bridges and routes, increased them on others, particularly for the vehicles that don’t need to be in New York City. So you create price incentives for people to behave in a more sustainable way. So the Brooklyn Bridge is free. The Manhattan Bridge is free. The Williamsburg Bridge is free, and the Triborough bridge you pay for. So if you have a small or a vehicle and you need to get from Long Island to New Jersey, you’re taking the bridge that costs you or the free bridge and those free bridges dump you into midtown Manhattan. You shouldn’t need to be there if all you want to do is to get to the other side. So the congestion pricing, and it’s not finally yet, it won’t be around for at least a year, but we hope it’ll be structured in such a way to encourage behaviors that are better for the city.

Regina: (24:46) One last issue for you. Um, 5G, DSRC, connected vehicles, C2VX, um, all of this new, this debate seems to have been going on forever. But the bottom line of the debate to me is that you got a DSRC sort of proven capability versus a 5G more unproven capability and not deployed. And so from your perspective in New York City, what is it going to actually take to get this deployed? Cause this is a big deal, right?

Cordell: (25:19) So we are in the midst, of a $20 million, $20 million USDOT connected vehicle CV deployment in New York City in three neighborhoods. Um, midtown Manhattan, the FDR Drive, and downtown Brooklyn. And we’re going to enroll about 8,000 vehicles, have between three and 400 intersections, that will allow the vehicles to communicate with the infrastructure and communicate with each other V2V to improve safety. So I’ll give you two use cases. One is crash avoidance. So a vehicle in a long row of cars stops, a panic stop way up ahead where you can’t see it normally there would be this accordion thing where people would smash into each other.

Regina: (26:10) Right.

Cordell: (26:11) You’re going to get a signal as soon as that panic stop occurs saying, so your roll, hopefully avoiding crashes along the way.

Regina: (26:19) To the vehicle or to the driver or both?

Cordell: (26:20) Well, so we’re going to give a signal to the vehicle. The vehicle is going to alert the driver. There was no emergency braking yet, but now you can take an action. Um, another use case is your vehicle will know, uh, could potentially know about the signal timing and could give you an alert when you’re not going to make that light no matter what you do.

Regina: (26:39) So slow down?

Cordell: (26:41) Yeah. So we think we’ll improve the throughput and decrease the amount of crashes that occur, improving safety, improving congestion, lowering pollution. And like you said, DSRC is here now.

Regina: (26:54) And this is what you’re using in the, in the pilot is DSRC technology?

Cordell: (26:58) Yes. And we’re rolling it out now, and I have great confidence that it’s gonna work and we’re going to want to put it all over the city. We’re like, you know, the timing is everything. So Toyota backed off a little bit. They were strong and, and uh, putting DSRC in the vehicles.

Regina: (27:14) They were, yeah.

Cordell: (27:14) It probably should have been mandated a long time ago. It wasn’t. It’s a proven technology. The other technologies that people talk about, um, are not proven, have not been fully tested. Who knows if they’re gonna work? And if you’re going to talk about deploying them on 4G and Cellular V2X, the other buzzword. So I took Amtrak down from New York City.

Regina: (27:36) Right. Been there.

Cordell: (27:37) I, I could not keep a signal all the way down along a train line that never changes. And they really want us to have faith that this will work where you need a ubiquitous signal, you need a constant signal everywhere. Come on. We’ve never had that certainty due to the way that the cellular network was rolled out here. In New York City there are still places with lousy coverage. So that network, I told you at the beginning that we’re creating with, with the private networks, right? We have some of the strongest SLA service level agreements for great financial payments due to the city, if they can’t keep coverage to the assets that never move our traffic signals, that’s how much we’re worried about it. And we don’t want anyone ever making a financial decision that it’s just cheaper to pay than to fix. We’re going to make sure that it’s, it’s so expensive to pay that they’ll always fix it. But our experience in the city and our experience in contracting tells us we need to put teeth like that into this contract to get the safety performance that we need from the system.

Regina: (28:52) One last question for you. The deployment of 5G is going to be tough, right? Because the way in which the technology works requires the infrastructure to be deployed differently than what we’ve seen in the past.

Cordell: (29:04) So we’re big supporters of 5G in general. So one, it’s good for us, uh, for the government and our responsibility to maintain competitive marketplaces, improved safety. We want the latest and greatest, and if we can send more information around the city to various city agencies for in public safety and quality of life, we absolutely want it. We also want it because we want New York City to remain competitive. So we want to be the first completely 5G city so businesses stay and want to locate in the city. So that’s not lost on us at all, but it’s got to be done in a better way than the, the previous Gs have been rolled out. Number one, we want the rollout across the city and we want communities that are disadvantaged to be able to, uh, improve their situation through the availability of this technology, some of which still doesn’t exist in their neighborhoods, even in previous iterations. So that’s, that’s number one. It’s gotta be widely available. Number two, it’s got to fit into the streetscape. We can’t have every vendor hanging whatever they want off of any light pole and thinking that’s the way to go.

Regina: (30:17) Hmm, that could be a mess.

Cordell: (30:17) Yes. Yep. And number three, it’s got to be done in an organized way in partnership with the city. And so far the, the companies have not rushed in to screw things up. So the conversation is ongoing. I know, uh, when I ask representatives of each of the carriers, what do you really need? You know what their answer is? We don’t know.

Regina: (30:40) Oh, wow, really?

Cordell: (30:40) It’s, it’s so new to them and our, um, geographic topology is so different than other places. They don’t know whether they need a lot or a little and how to optimize that. And if it starts out being like college refrigerator size, we know in the 10 years each G will live maybe by the end of the shoe box size. So maybe we need different rules for the shoebox as opposed to the dorm refrigerators.

Regina: (31:06) Wow.

Cordell: (31:07) So they really are changing requirements for this, and we want to be part of the conversation, but it’s gotta be done in a way that improves equity, that maintains New York City’s competitive position that allows us to use it in the government and is done in a way that’s sustainable because we know there’s going to be 6G.

Regina: (31:28) Yeah.

Cordell: (31:28) And each G overlaps the previous one for about five years. So 4G isn’t going away. How do we manage all that together? And I think it’s by working in close coordination with each other.

Regina: (31:39) Well, you know, I don’t want it to be a cliche, but they say if you can make it in New York, you can make it anywhere, right? So certainly you’ve got your hands full.

Cordell: (31:46) Yeah.

Regina: (31:46) But the city’s, so lucky to have you.

Cordell: (31:48) Well, thank you.

Regina: (31:49) And the country’s so lucky to have you with our, one of our biggest cities in the country. Is New York now, still, is it the biggest city in the, in the country or has L.A. taken that?

Cordell: (31:58) I don’t know.

Regina: (31:59) Okay, well we’ll just for this we’ll, for this, we’ll say the biggest city.

Cordell: (32:02) But let me, so thank you for the compliment. But I work in a great agency that, that um, prizes and, and supports innovation and support us participating at the national level. So here’s New York City having a national policy and you know, I think our commissioner, Polly Trottenberg.

Regina: (32:19) She’s great.

Cordell: (32:20) For letting me do this.

Regina: (32:21) She is great.

Cordell: (32:22) And participating in discussions like the ones with L.A., like the ones with NACTO and here at ITS America. And, and I do think it’s, it’s good for all of us when we all work together.

Regina: (32:33) Cordell, thank you. Thank you. I’m going to call you again, you know.

Cordell: (32:35) You bet.

Regina: (32:36) Okay.

Cordell: (32:36) So thanks so much for listening and participating in the POLICYSMART podcast. You can download the POLICYSMART App on the Apple App Store and Google Play, and you can listen to the podcast on Apple Podcast, Google Play, and now on Spotify. And also, please leave a review to help people like you, those interested in the next generation of mobility and intelligent transportation find us.

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